Ep5: How Boardgames go from Prototype to Published with Dan Manfredini

Join Josh on The Business of Gaming podcast as he visits with Dan Manfredini, a hobby board game designer in Austin, Texas. This episode discusses the process of creating a board game, pitching games to publishers and how the game publishing process has evolved over the last 16 years.

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Introduction

Hey y'all. Welcome to the business of

gaming podcast. I'm Josh with Game Haven

Guild. And today I'm sitting down with

Dan Manfredini, board game designer in

Austin, Texas. Dan's published over

seven games over the last 16 years, some

of which include his most recent Trail

Story America and Island Siege. Well,

Getting the First Game Published, Monkey Lab

tell us about the beginning. You woke up

one day and decided to design a game.

I'm assuming it wasn't that simple, but

how did

There's two starts, I guess. Like the

one is woke up and decided to make

games. And that was like all the way

back in when I was in third grade. I

remember taking construction pieces of

paper and drawing these pictures, but I

was intrigued with interactive art and

you know, so I draw a picture of like a

a dungeon and then I'd make a game with

it. And I remember make a bunch of those

uh sheets of the time and they're all

mostly rolling moves and and things like

that. And throughout the years, I would

do that for various interests of like I

tried to make Magic the Gathering out of

a deck of cards and and making various

rules to bits and pieces that I have

around a variant of Monopoly, things

like that. But it wasn't until 2005 or

so that they took a class at a local

community college that was for video

game design. And one of the exercises we

had to do was uh to prototype our game

as a board game. That was like part of

the curriculum. And so I did that and

you know I was really intrigued by that

because like I had complete control. Um

it was much quicker than making a video

game and I could sink my teeth into

that. And then after I saw everybody

else's designs and I looked at you know

my design I'm like you know I think I

want to see if I can get this published

and try moving forward. At the time

there wasn't a lot of information out

there. Uh I remember going to Gen Con

and and going to different presentations

from hobby game designers that were kind

of at my level of trying to break in. I

consume all of that and try to figure

that out. The prototype for my first

game, Monkey Lab, was was made in that

in that class. And I tried pitching it

around. A lot of times it was just blind

emails and to whatever publishers I knew

about at the time. And uh I think it was

uh my friend uh Jonathan Lico, who's

also a game designer, he alerted me to

the fact that a uh company AEG was

looking for

board game designs. And at the time I

think they were like mostly focused on

collectible card games and they were

shifting and they wanted to do you know

board games and obviously today they

that's you know well known for that but

at the time um not so much and so I let

you know I said hey can you look make

them look at uh see if they can look at

Monkey Lab and they looked at it and

then they wanted to sign it and uh a lot

of hurdles I remember feeling like it

was not going to go anywhere and didn't

know what I was doing at the time but

then you know some different connections

and some luck and then uh the

opportunity arose.

Well can you walk us through what that

process was back in that was 2008 2009

right. What did that look like from a

you got in contact with them you sent

them the physical game or you sent them

a video at that point of the game?

Oh not a video. Um, pretty sure I did

not meet with them in person, but I did

send I think a prototype after I had

sent out uh feelers to see if they were

interested in looking at prototypes and

and they did agree to that.

Yeah. And then I'm assuming there's an

editing process that occurs there around

they are helping design some of the

final look and feels of it or is that

very much they ran with with what you

had at that point? Um, so at the time I

didn't know what to expect and I believe

with Monkey Lab it was well into like

right before printing that I saw

anything of it and there was some

moments of like panic of like oh wait

this is misspelled row this is you know

has an error and I was able to correct a

few of those things. That was my first

taste of like okay what what this

experience would be like. other

publishers had much more interactive

approach day one and um developing and

editing and and uh requests for changes

and things like that with monkey lab not

so much but uh I was just happy to get

something out the door so I don't want

to you know rock the boat too much or

whatever just you know just uh be happy

that it's moving forward

and did you have certain expectations

for that very first game and and were

they met or not or do you remember is

the was the expectation just something's

out in public

yeah That's that's my kind of philosophy

for, you know, everything is that, you

know, I I' I've got all these goals of

like achievements I want to do and, you

know, with the new game that comes out,

it's like, oh, this one, uh, you know,

that was my first game, so like I had a

box with my name on it with rules that I

wrote and

that checked a lot of boxes for a big

achievement.

Yeah. And other games, you know, had

other uh achievements along the way and

um I'm still kind of chasing there's

still a lot of them. I I have to do and

uh I would say that yeah I mean there's

a big difference between once you get

past that first one I had heard like

that allows you to know you have a

business card in the form of a game that

you can say hey I I've made this one

I've gone through the process uh and the

more you build up the easier it is that

publishers will want to check out your

work as they they see okay this uh he's

able to get things done.

Yeah. How about to that that process of

How has Working with Publishers Changed Over Time?

working with the publishers? How's that

kind of evolved over time? Because

you've worked with seven different

publishers on your seven different

games.

Yeah.

Right. And over these last 16 years,

surely that process has changed some as

it goes.

Some things change and some things don't

change. And depends on how new the

company is, who you're working with, and

what their experiences are. If if

they've been making games for the last,

you know, 30 years, there's a chance

that the processes haven't really

changed much. But if they're a new

company, they might use all sorts of

collaborative tools that you might use

in an office setting or file management

systems or or things like that. And

that's what happened with I think with

our Space Foundry. Um the company uh

which no longer exists, but the company

was uh Teranova Games and

and that was in 2015.

Yeah, they were great to work with. Um

very communicative. We used Asana for

project management. So I knew the status

of every little comment or feedback. It

was all tracked and we could see exactly

where things were. Uh if you had a

question about the status of something,

you just go look at like the ticket for

that thing. Um although it's just more

like a checklist of who signed off and

this is done. Um and then other

experiences it's a little more chaotic.

Um especially with more people involved.

You know, I'm a software engineer by

day. So I I'm used to like change

management and tracking ideas and

tickets and and things like that. So I

try to apply that and try to make it go

as smooth as possible at least when I

present so I'm not telling maybe the

artist one thing and then the publisher

another thing and wires get crossed. So,

it's always a challenge and uh I try to

usually see, you know, what the

environment's like and kind of work with

whatever the publisher is and maybe

suggest a few things, but usually they

have a process of how we collaborate

because there is a period after you sign

to the moment it goes to print where

there's usually some feedback the

publisher wants incorporated into the

The Steps to Getting a Game Published

game. Could you walk us through kind of

that calendar and even even before

talking to the publisher? So idea for

game comes up, you're talking to some

friends and family, getting feedback. At

what point are you talking to the

publisher, then what are kind of those

milestones that go all the way up to it

being released?

Well, first is an idea in my head and

I'll I'll have tons of notes everywhere

and I have to make the leap of okay, do

do I want to go on the computer and and

start designing out things or do I just

want to use scraps of paper and cubes

that I have to kind of roughly flesh

that out. Uh, and once usually I do that

and then I make the leap to okay, I'm

making a rule book and and some files to

get some rough ideas down. Then I will

still play that in internally with

myself with me playing, you know,

multiple uh as multiple players or maybe

just kind of winging it at that point.

And then, you know, depending on if I

have a design group or play testers at

the time, I'll at past that point, I'll

I'll bring it up to them. But usually, I

don't want to have them go through some

painful experience. I want to make sure

like does the game have an ending? You

know, are there too many loose ends in

the game that I I can't like let them

suffer through that because don't want

to burn through play testers too

quickly. Um players will have a maybe a

bad experience and they might not want

to come back or they have a tainted view

of the game or they have old rules in

their brain and and that's changing how

they're playing the game because they

thought they could do certain things.

So, uh it's always good to get just

different different eyes on on the game.

How long you usually play testing a game

before you take it to a publisher? It

depends on the back.

Well, how light the game is. Um how many

outstanding elements I have in the game

uh that I still maybe I'm not happy

with. Like, yeah, I like the core loop,

but for games that have cards, like a

Trail Story America has a lot of cards

in it with a lot of different content.

You know, I may play test a lot and

everything's great, but there's maybe a

few cards that, you know, boy, they

didn't come out and maybe if they came

out, they didn't get fully utilized. And

so, those are stragglers there. And

trying to make sure that those are all

right. It's it's can be timeconuming to

kind of see how everything interacts.

Uh, the more moving pieces you have. For

a game that's an abstract game like uh

Ceni or or Brigu, there's it's much

easier kind of figure uh some things out

there. So I feel more confident that

like okay and so it's a matter of just

getting in front of different people and

playing with different player counts. Um

making sure that that you get some blind

play testing in where you send a rule

book and a prototype and either watch

players uh play the game or not at all.

Um I know at one point we had a a design

group like a sister group to Austin

group that uh in Oklahoma uh they're

still there but uh they we would do an

exchange of prototypes. So, we had a

built-in way to have somebody play test

it, give a feedback and and just

completely like, you know, the ultimate

test and their designer minds can kind

of like give a different type of

feedback than the general public might

for sure. Yeah.

That might give. Uh,

so then you're ready to start showing it

to publishers. What does a general

calendar look like then from okay,

contact with publisher to being printed?

That's one of the most challenging parts

is uh you know I've got a finished game

and uh I I like to or my most successful

experiences have been going to

conventions and make making an

arrangement with a publisher to show off

the game, showing the game off and uh

you know play testing with them and and

you know getting some feedback. So I

would go to Gen Con, uh, Board Gamegeeek

Con. Back in the day, there was a lot of

publishers there and Fax Unplugged I

would go to. But, you know, a lot of

that can be timeconuming and inexpensive

and you don't know the results. I've

tried also some blind pitches, uh, you

know, just contacting out of, you know,

out of the blue and and some online

pitches, especially during the pandemic,

it's hard to say what works because when

somebody is interested, it's like the

stars align. Uh because I've had so many

times where it's, "Oh, we really like

this game, but you made an Egyptian

game, but we just put out an Egyptian

game. We don't want another one." Or,

you know, that that level of uh

complexity. We can only put out one big

game a year, but or we don't do big

games, but uh definitely would fit in

our universe that we already have

established. So, it's really hard to

kind of predict. So getting it in front

of, you know, as many eyes as uh you can

and not to get it in front of somebody

that like if you make a light game and

you pitch it to company primarily known

for heavy war games, it's well, you need

to get to the right person.

So you've got uh a full set of ideas in

Which Ideas are Worth Making into Games?

your head. How do you know which ones to

go and try and actually make the games

for? And then how do you know when that

game's ready for play testing?

Usually I think of a lot of ideas.

Sometimes I'll jot it down and and you

know it might be a nugget of something

that's theme or mechanics that's

interesting and recently I had an idea

for for a game and I I started

prototyping it with little bits and uh

cubes and and coins and dice and things

like that and I'm kind of going through

the motions and I'm like gosh I'm not

even enjoying this myself if uh and if

I'm not passionate about at that point

I'm like well I'm not going to drag

other people into this uh and make them

play this game that I'm not not enth

enthralled with. Uh but after that uh

the current game I'm currently working

on I was uh inspired and I really wanted

thematically it was something I wanted

to explore and uh so having a passion

behind it uh is important. I know that's

one thing I hear from a lot of designers

that kind of start uh in this hobby is

that they fizzle out. There's a lot of

work involved and you, you know, have to

have that passion and and that

determination to uh to keep going with

something, especially if you get stuck

or, you know, have some setbacks.

There's a lot of highs and lows in the

mix. So, there's a lot of lows to there

could be more lows than highs. I mean,

when you're play testing, some play

tests are just a whole bunch of people

telling you negative things about your

game in sometimes articulate ways,

sometimes just very, you know, crude

ways. and you kind of have to take all

the punches. Um, uh, and sometimes they

bring good ideas and all that stuff. You

have to be ready for kind of dealing

with that because that can kind of take

its toll if you're if you're not, you

know, familiar with kind of that

process.

Yeah. Old feedback is good feedback, but

that negative feedback can build up in

your head probably.

Yeah. And I've got a way to combat that.

I have a prototype ready to play test.

I'm all excited because I'm like, "Oh, I

fixed all the problems with last time."

And so I let it simmer before I bring it

out to people so I can enjoy that like

positive feeling. So and I can think

about it some more and play test it in

my head a little bit, you know, before

maybe I get it out. Uh, and to enjoy

that like I'm on top of the world. I

fixed everything because the moment I

play test it, somebody kick me down a

sand castle and it's like, oh, thought I

fixed that and they found a way to to

break that. and then you feel a little

bit like low because you got to come up

with a solution and maybe you've thought

you've gone through all those solutions

but eventually you get back up. Uh so I

try to stay in that positive zone and

less time in that that negative zone and

uh uh and that kind of helps me kind of

move forward and get out. Now once the

game is published that's a whole other

ball of axis. You'll get good praise in

the review, but then you'll get really

negative praise or negative feedback and

uh some comments and you can't do you

can't really do anything at that point.

It is what it is. Uh it's an interesting

experience kind of the the whole uh that

whole process. It's not all like

sunshine and rainbows. It's uh it's got

some ups and downs there. So after it's

signed then most of the time the

publisher will give some like hey you

know we need to fix this or that. like

they they signed it knowing like okay

they like the whole concept but there

might be a few things uh that might be

need to be changed. I know for a space

the publishers wanted it to be a shorter

game uh slightly shorter than what it

was and so I'm like okay u and I like to

tell them like you know I will present

you with some solutions and then we can

work on that but I want I want to be a

part of all the solutions. I don't want

it just to be like let's throw things at

it until it fixes itself. So for that

game, you play through some cards from

your hand and that kind of dictates how

many turns you have. And u you ended up

condensing a few cards to to get rid of

like three cards from the game and did

some math and figured out that like each

card was so many minutes and because you

go through your deck twice that that

would correspond and that's how how it

uh turned out. So I did that, presented

that to them. um presented some other

ideas as well and they play tested it

and liked it and then we kind of move

forward with that and um sometimes they

I interact with the artists and I really

like when that happens. Uh the artist

will pitch some ideas or draw some

things or and I look at them and give

them some feedback. Sometimes uh one

time I was asked to come up with like a

board of images that I thought would

best match what was in my game to give

to the artist to kind of see if we're on

the same page. And so we kind of work

back and forth there. That was nice.

Other times it's just uh I get what I

you know I I get what I get and I kind

of play interference and try to say well

okay like this icon you you change this

to this icon but this is supposed to

represent a cube not a c uh like a disc

or or something like that. So sometimes

things get lost in translation

especially if the people involved aren't

necessarily familiar with the game as

much as I am. There's, you know, some

games can be really complicated with a

lot of symbology everywhere and

sometimes that can get lost. I haven't a

lot. And so there's a lot there's a lot

of back and forth there. There's editing

of the rules. That's another, you know,

point where I'm involved with usually

the rules lay out what happened and then

I'll go through and and and read it and

give my feedback of, okay, you know,

like we changed this paragraph, now this

means something different. We need to

fix that or maybe this example image

doesn't match what the actual example

text is. And so there's back and forth

there. So there's a lot of work kind of

going back and forth there. At the end

of the day, it's like my baby, you know?

So like I want to I feel like sometimes

if I don't catch it, it it might go out

because if the rule was interpreted one

way and I'm the only one I'm the

gatekeeper of the kind of the rules. Um

because even the publisher could be

playing it wrong the entire time and not

even realize it. So that that all

happens. Then we start getting files

ready and I start seeing some of those

files and then uh at some point you know

I might see those final files and then

it's whenever the publisher works with

the printer to to print it and and then

it's just a waiting game at that point

and uh some point is some magic that

happens because I've never been able to

get like a exact date but the game will

release and it's always sometimes

sporadic sometimes I release it at

convention and some people have the game

before you know I might have the game or

sometimes it's uh you know available on

in stores and I don't even realize it or

you know so it's it it comes out and

then I get it in my hand and and uh and

then it's always exciting because it's

like wow like I scraps of paper turn to

this and uh you know it's all worth that

you know the process to get get to that

point. Going back to your your thoughts

on the artists, are you generally, you

know, assigned an artist from the

publisher? Are you finding your own

artist, please? Or

it's always through the publisher. Um,

I've never really had a suggestion for

an artist. Um, usually they have

somebody they work with factoring in,

you know, art styles for the game. You

know, it it can be more involved. Um,

other times it could be, you know, I'm

I'm just on the side. they give me

access to the the the files and I can

see them as they come in and then and

then I'll periodically make some notes

and say hey you know I think for a trail

story there was uh it's a little thing

but they had there's a squirrel in the

game and they had drawn a European

squirrel uh and because they have pointy

ears and uh I was like oh this is a

trail story America so it needs to be an

American squirrel it's a little thing

but I'm like yeah I feel like I you know

we should we should fix it up and they

did uh little things like that sometime

Challenges of Getting a Game Published Today?

looking at your, you know, next games

coming out. Trail Story America just

came out.

You got another one, uh, in process,

Xenology.

Yeah.

What are the biggest differences in

getting these two out today versus

Monkey Live back in 2009?

To me, what feels like the biggest

difference is that the number of

designers out there has grown. The

number of games that comes out each year

has grown so much. the tools and uh for

game designers and starting game

designers has has grown. There's

countless YouTube videos, countless

resources, groups, play test

methodologies, uh all that stuff exists

today that didn't exist back in the day.

Um so the competition has has risen. So

you're not competing just with what your

game is, you're competing with everybody

else. And I've been told many times uh

that, you know, this is a great solid

game, but we're seeing hundreds and

hundreds of games. We we we're not just

picking a good game. We're picking a,

you know, we have to pick a great game

because we they've got the choice. Uh

and they have, I guess, the luxury to to

pick amongst the the best. So, uh so I

have to step up my game. Sometimes

there's a lot of time commitment going

to conventions and and whatnot. And it's

almost like a for me it feels like it's,

you know, it's definitely a requirement

to to be at all these places, but it can

wear thin on the wallet and and the

family and just kind of going to all

these different things. and if nothing

comes of it, then doesn't feel as worth

it. In the meantime, you're also trying

to develop the next game. So, you're

you're you're doing all this at kind of

at the same time. And uh it's nice to be

able to put effort in and get results.

Sometimes that doesn't always happen.

I'd say I was lucky because live in the

Austin area and board game was is in

Dallas and I'd go up there every year

and at at the time I would say it's not

that way today, but all the publishers

would would go there. So I had like a

yearly access to to go and uh do that.

They also had designer publisher events

where you could pitch your games to to

publishers. So I had many different ways

of of interacting. Uh I think after I

think packs unplugged started which

happened at the same weekend as DGCON.

They all split and went over there.

There's still some left, but uh it it's

not as convenient and uh I'd say that

hinders things a bit because Texas isn't

necessarily really close to anywhere

else. So, it's just a lot of uh plane

tickets all over the place.

How has Kickstarter Changed?

The impact of Kickstarter, you know, I

know you're not necessarily putting your

games on Kickstarter, but some of your

publishers are as a strategy to get out

there. Have you seen an impact or do you

have a thought on how that has changed

either how with you or

I know that early on um my game Venture

Forest and Island Siege were both on

Kickstarter and Burgu as well and this

was back in the experimental early

phases of Kickstarter where people were

trying different things and what do you

set your goal at you know what all these

different factors and and they you made

enough to to get out the door and and

and you know be published, but there's a

lot of things that go into those

Kickstarter. Like there's so much more

elaborate now today than than they were

back then. Like where you scroll down

the bottom of Kickstarter and there's

like a you know 15 person team that's a

part of this company that's doing all

this stuff and uh that's not you know

not necessarily the case. um they know

they sell a lot and they get a lot of

attention, but uh back in the day

Kickstarter was just about used as an

advertising tool and and over time

people realized that you can't use it

for advertising. You got to advertise to

get people to look at Kickstarter to to

get it out. But it's kind of it feeds

itself. Uh it's cyclical. Um, as far as

Kickstarters today, um, I to me they

don't feel as, I guess, special, uh,

because there's so many of them and

there's so many games out there that I'm

not like a fear of missing out type

person. So, I'll let I'll let things go

and I'll miss it because I'm never short

for a game that I have not played that I

get a chance to play. So, like I'm I'm

not starving for new content. like uh

some you know people might want to be on

Kickstarter because they want to be part

of that experience of that development

process and and all that stuff but I'm

as a designer I do that all the time

anyway. It's definitely changed since

since it first started.

Yeah. Mentioned uh a couple times you're

a hobby game maker. What would it take

to maybe move from that hobby status to

being able to be a full-time game

designer

in order to make that leap? I would

still want to stick to design. For a

while, I toyed with the idea of

publishing my own uh my own games. So,

as a designer, you know, I I do, you

know, rule rule books and play testing

and and prototyping and that's kind of

my area of expertise. But with as a

publisher, you got to deal with, you

know, artists and contracts and printers

and shipping and logistics and

fulfillment and returns and advertising

and conventions and all these different

things. And

the designers I've seen kind of go

switch to that and try to do that. They

don't get enough time to do design. And

I I don't want to do all that other

stuff. I just want to design design

games. That avenue for doing a full-time

as a publisher. That would be one

avenue. The other avenue as a designer

is you know get a big hit and you know

and then the other avenue is well maybe

you know get enough out there and you

know supplement the income. you know,

that that might be another way, but I

would have to as someone with a family

and and other other goals, it's it's

kind of a well, I need that stability

and I enjoy having a steady paycheck and

health insurance and all these other

things. So, how I view it is that I want

to make enough to help fund itself, so

pay for trips to inventions and things

like that. or look at another way, just

I wanted to fund it making allowing me

to make more games and uh not be

concerned about the finan financial

aspects of it all. But if you know if I

did have a massive hit, then I would you

know definitely you know consider uh

that especially as I as I get older and

it's like well boy if I you know retire

one day it's like oh I can game design

all the time and I don't have to worry

about anything else.

Well, let's finish it off with advice to

your past self. you're getting ready to

publish your first game. What would you

go back and tell yourself?

That's a good question. Uh, I would tell

myself, well, one, I would say to relax.

Look, you know, I'm your future self.

I've got some games out the door. It,

you know, it'll it will come. Just do

what you like doing and continue to do

that. Put the effort in. Nothing's a

dead end. You know, if if you know, you

have something you believe in, if you

keep going with that. Uh, as far as

something I tell myself, tricks I might

know today that would be useful back

then, I'd probably say to to I guess

believe anything is possible. Talk to

publishers that you don't necessarily

would think that they would look at your

stuff. Like everybody's just, you know,

a person and you just do your best, do

your research, be persistent, and uh and

just yeah, keep keep designing.

Experts Advice on Getting Your Game Published

So, you've got uh a new one in process.

Xenology is on roadmap to come out soon.

You just released Trail Story of America

though. How is Trail Story of America

doing? How does that how's that game

play?

So that game is a game about depression

era American South and you're kind of

down in your luck and you're a young

person and you just want to go on an

adventure. So it's a different type of

adventure game. It's not like standard

fantasy adventure game, but you go out

and just explore the wilderness, run

into small towns and and you know,

random vagabonds and people on in box

cars and bears and wolves and you're

just trying to find your way through.

And you've got a journal in this game

and that the main mechanic of the game

is that you uh encounter different cards

and those essentially are stories that

you will later on write and you will put

in your journal and it will dictate how

you score at the end of the game. Uh but

there's a lot of character growth uh

exploration. I I like games with

exploration and it's always difficult to

do in a board game because you with a

board game you also want to have

strategy and exploration means that

you're going into the unknown and

strategy means you're planning for what

you you know what you have and uh one of

the systems I have in the game I really

proud of is uh the ability to see some

aspects of information about what's on

the board and which direction you should

move but you don't have all the

information so you can still plan ahead,

but you don't know the details until you

flip over that card. Uh, you know a lot

about the card, but you don't know the

fine details. So, you can make informed

decisions, but there's still that like

surprise of, oh, that's that's what I'm

encountering uh around the corner. And,

uh, so even today when I'm playing it, I

still like it's just it's an adventure

of like, oh, okay, you know, how do I

want to handle this situation? Every

card has uh some options and it's not

clear-cut how you handle uh you know how

you handle that. Uh how much you know

effort do you want to put into resolving

particular situation? Some bullies are

on on the street. How how bad do you

want to get away from them?

Took a long road to kind of get to uh

publishing, but I'm really happy with

the results and the the look of the art.

It's like all handdrawn art. Uh looks

like pages from a sketchbook. Yeah, it's

been doing well. It came out uh last

summer and uh yeah, I'm pleased with the

results.

Dan, thanks for taking the time today to

talk to us. Appreciate it.

Yeah, thank you, Josh.